Club Certificate2025
PHOTOGENIKAESP-13111_C
RFEV
c/ Gamazo sn
39004 Santander – España
crucero@rfev.es
Rated boat velocities in knots
Wind Velocity 4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Beat Angles41.5°41.5°38.6°36.6°35.8°35.5°35.3°35.4°36.7°
Beat VMG2.913.964.715.055.205.285.335.385.30
52°4.555.906.666.977.127.217.297.397.41
60°4.816.136.807.147.327.437.537.667.72
75°4.956.266.897.297.597.797.948.198.32
90°4.796.136.847.277.678.038.338.809.16
110°4.285.756.747.317.828.318.739.4210.05
120°4.085.546.577.167.718.298.9510.1911.24
135°3.494.906.056.797.307.848.4510.1713.14
150°2.854.115.246.206.857.337.839.0911.25
Run VMG2.473.564.545.406.116.677.138.059.74
Gybe Angles144.0°144.0°149.2°153.9°161.9°169.8°175.4°166.4°141.6°
APH ToD:545.7CDL: 8.875APH ToT: 1.0996CertNo:1311101
BOAT
ClassILC 30DesignerFELCI-ROMANELLIBuilderONE OFF GARDAAge date06/1995Series date06/1995Offset filePHOTO96K.OFFData fileE13111_C
HULL
Length Overall9.590 mMaximum Beam3.130 mDraft1.967 mDisplacement2,326 kgDLR4.7262IMS DivisionPerformanceDynamic Allowance0.000%Age Allowance0.487%
PROPELLER
InstallationStrutTypeFolding 2 bladesDiameter0.385m
CREW
Maximum weight600 kg(declared)Minimum weight470 kg ✱ when appliedNon Manual PowerNoCrew Arm Extension
SAIL AREAS (m²)
MeasuredRatedMainsail31.8732.49Headsail Luffed28.5628.56Headsail FlyingSymmetric57.7157.71Asymmetric
STORM SAIL AREAS (m²)
Trysail9.34Storm Jib7.00Heavy Weather Jib18.90
SAIL LIMITS
Headsails5Spinnakers4
STABILITY
Righting MomentN/AStability IndexN/A
The owner and any other person in charge is responsible that boat is complying with her certificate in accordance with RRS 78.1 and ORC Rule 304.
Club Certificate2025
PHOTOGENIKAESP-13111_C
RFEV
c/ Gamazo sn
39004 Santander – España
crucero@rfev.es
Time Allowances in secs/NM
Wind Velocity 4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Beat VMG1238.0908.9764.7712.6692.6682.1674.8668.9678.8
52°791.6610.0540.4516.2505.9499.4494.0487.4486.1
60°748.0587.0529.2504.4492.0484.4478.0469.7466.6
75°727.6575.4522.3493.9474.1462.4453.5439.7432.5
90°751.7587.7526.7494.9469.2448.2432.1409.1392.8
110°840.6626.5533.9492.6460.5433.3412.4382.2358.3
120°882.6650.4548.0502.5466.9434.5402.4353.2320.2
135°1031.4734.4595.4530.4492.9459.4426.0354.1274.0
150°1261.4876.0686.4580.9525.8491.0459.8396.0320.1
Run VMG1456.71011.5792.6667.3589.7539.6505.1447.0369.6
Selected Courses
Windward / Leeward1346.2960.2778.6689.9641.1610.9590.0558.0524.2
All purpose1006.4740.1620.5564.5532.0509.6491.5461.4434.0
Single Number Scoring Options
CourseTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Windward / Leeward665.30.9019
All purpose545.71.0996
 
Custom scoring options for Australia
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Custom scoring options for Austria
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Coastal/Long Distance591.11.0150
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Performance Curve4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Coastal/Long Distance1441.9965.4737.4628.8565.9528.5495.3438.7412.1
Custom scoring options for Brazil
Scoring OptionTime On
Time
Upwind "bolina"0.8228
Downwind "popa"0.9225
70% up, 30% down "Ilhabela"0.8504
30% up, 70% down "Ilhabela-inverso"0.8901
Custom scoring options for Bulgaria
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Predominantly Upwind583.51.0282
Predominantly Downwind561.21.0691
Custom scoring options for Canada
Scoring OptionTODTOT
Triple Number AP Low680.30.8820
Triple Number AP Medium544.61.1017
Triple Number AP High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low908.40.6605
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Single Number Predominant Upwind601.70.9971
Single Number Predominant Reaching540.71.1097
Single Number Predominant Downwind582.51.0300
Predominant Upwind - Low785.20.7642
Predominant Upwind - Low/Med625.80.9587
Predominant Upwind - Medium570.11.0525
Predominant Upwind - Med/High537.31.1168
Predominant Upwind - High516.81.1611
Predominant Downwind Low843.50.7113
Predominant Downwind Low/Med633.70.9468
Predominant Downwind Medium544.61.1016
Predominant Downwind Med/High480.81.2479
Predominant Downwind High430.91.3925
Predominant Reaching Low726.50.8259
Predominant Reaching Low/Med575.11.0432
Predominant Reaching Medium514.01.1674
Predominant Reaching Med/High467.81.2825
Predominant Reaching High431.81.3896
SA/DSPL Upwind34.33SA/DSPL Downwind50.88
Scoring OptionTODTOT
5-Band Windward/Leeward Low1011.60.5931
5-Band Windward/Leeward Low/Med753.80.7960
5-Band Windward/Leeward Medium651.30.9212
5-Band Windward/Leeward Med/High592.41.0129
5-Band Windward/Leeward High557.71.0759
Windward/Leeward 60-40 Low1000.30.5998
Windward/Leeward 60-40 Low/Med754.40.7953
Windward/Leeward 60-40 Medium660.80.9080
Windward/Leeward 60-40 Med/High609.20.9849
Windward/Leeward 60-40 High580.41.0337
5-Band AP Low752.60.7972
5-Band AP Low/Med605.30.9913
5-Band AP Medium537.61.1160
5-Band AP Med/High492.91.2173
5-Band AP High461.81.2991
5-Band SF Bay Tour - Low868.50.6908
5-Band SF Bay Tour - Low/Med719.50.8339
5-Band SF Bay Tour - Medium629.50.9532
5-Band SF Bay Tour - Med/High576.41.0409
5-Band SF Bay Tour - High542.31.1065
Chicago-Mac Upwind0.9717
Chicago-Mac All Purpose0.9856
Chicago-Mac Downwind0.9913
Bayview-Mac Cove Island0.7378
Bayview-Mac Shore0.7453
Harvest Moon Regatta473.41.2675
Custom scoring options for Cyprus
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Coastal/Long Distance591.11.0150
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Performance Curve4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Coastal/Long Distance1441.9965.4737.4628.8565.9528.5495.3438.7412.1
Custom scoring options for Denmark
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Coastal/Long Distance591.11.0150
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Performance Curve4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Coastal/Long Distance1441.9965.4737.4628.8565.9528.5495.3438.7412.1
Custom scoring options for Spain
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Coastal/Long Distance591.1
Performance Curve4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Coastal/Long Distance1441.9965.4737.4628.8565.9528.5495.3438.7412.1
Custom scoring options for Estonia
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Custom scoring options for Finland
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
FinRating (Coastal/Long Distance)591.11.0150
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Performance Curve4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Coastal/Long Distance1441.9965.4737.4628.8565.9528.5495.3438.7412.1
Custom scoring options for France
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Custom scoring options for Germany
Scoring OptionTime On
Time
Coastal/Long Distance1.0150
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low0.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium1.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High1.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low0.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium0.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High1.0288
Performance Curve4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Coastal/Long Distance1441.9965.4737.4628.8565.9528.5495.3438.7412.1
For information
General Purpose Handicap (GPH)608.0
Custom scoring options for Greece
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Coastal/Long Distance591.11.0150
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Performance Curve4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Coastal/Long Distance1441.9965.4737.4628.8565.9528.5495.3438.7412.1
Custom scoring options for Hungary
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Custom scoring options for Israel
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Coastal/Long Distance591.11.0150
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Performance Curve4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Coastal/Long Distance1441.9965.4737.4628.8565.9528.5495.3438.7412.1
Custom scoring options for Japan
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Coastal/Long Distance591.11.0150
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Performance Curve4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Coastal/Long Distance1441.9965.4737.4628.8565.9528.5495.3438.7412.1
Custom scoring options for Korea
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.3
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.6
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.7
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.4
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.3
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.2
Predominantly Upwind583.5
Predominantly Downwind561.2
Predominantly Reaching535.5
Custom scoring options for Lithuania
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Coastal/Long Distance591.11.0150
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Performance Curve4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Coastal/Long Distance1441.9965.4737.4628.8565.9528.5495.3438.7412.1
Custom scoring options for Netherlands
Scoring OptionTime On
Time
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low0.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium1.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High1.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low0.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium0.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High1.0288
Coastal/Long Distance1.0150
Predominantly Upwind1.0282
Predominantly Downwind1.0691
For information
General Purpose Handicap (GPH)608.0
Custom scoring options for Norway
Scoring OptionTime On
Time
Distanseseilas Singeltall  (APH)1.0996
Distanseseilas Trippeltall svak vind0.8820
Distanseseilas Trippeltall mellomvind1.1018
Distanseseilas Trippeltall sterk vind1.2378
Pølsebane Trippeltall svak vind0.6901
Pølsebane Trippeltall mellomvind0.9073
Pølsebane Trippeltall sterk vind1.0288
Motvind Singeltall1.0282
Medvind Singeltall1.0691
Custom scoring options for Portugal
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Coastal/Long Distance591.11.0150
Custom scoring options for Russia
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Predominantly Upwind583.51.0282
Predominantly Downwind561.21.0691
Custom scoring options for South Africa
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Cape Doctor Inshore534.31.1229
Cape Doctor Coastal442.21.3569
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Custom scoring options for Slovenia
Scoring OptionTime On
Time
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low0.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium1.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High1.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low0.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium0.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High1.0288
Custom scoring options for Switzerland
Scoring OptionTime On
Time
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low0.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium1.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High1.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low0.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium0.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High1.0288
Custom scoring options for Sweden
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Coastal/Long Distance591.11.0150
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Predominantly Upwind583.51.0282
Predominantly Downwind561.21.0691
Performance Curve4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Coastal/Long Distance1441.9965.4737.4628.8565.9528.5495.3438.7412.1
Custom scoring options for Ukraine
Scoring OptionTime On
Distance
Time On
Time
Coastal/Long Distance591.11.0150
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Low680.30.8820
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance Medium544.61.1018
Triple Number Coastal/Long Distance High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low869.40.6901
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Performance Curve4 kt 6 kt 8 kt 10 kt 12 kt 14 kt 16 kt 20 kt 24 kt
Coastal/Long Distance1441.9965.4737.4628.8565.9528.5495.3438.7412.1
Custom scoring options for United States of America
Scoring OptionTODTOT
Triple Number AP Low680.30.8820
Triple Number AP Medium544.61.1017
Triple Number AP High484.71.2378
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Low908.40.6605
Triple Number Windward/Leeward Medium661.30.9073
Triple Number Windward/Leeward High583.21.0288
Single Number Predominant Upwind601.70.9971
Single Number Predominant Reaching540.71.1097
Single Number Predominant Downwind582.51.0300
Predominant Upwind - Low785.20.7642
Predominant Upwind - Low/Med625.80.9587
Predominant Upwind - Medium570.11.0525
Predominant Upwind - Med/High537.31.1168
Predominant Upwind - High516.81.1611
Predominant Downwind Low843.50.7113
Predominant Downwind Low/Med633.70.9468
Predominant Downwind Medium544.61.1016
Predominant Downwind Med/High480.81.2479
Predominant Downwind High430.91.3925
Predominant Reaching Low726.50.8259
Predominant Reaching Low/Med575.11.0432
Predominant Reaching Medium514.01.1674
Predominant Reaching Med/High467.81.2825
Predominant Reaching High431.81.3896
SA/DSPL Upwind34.33SA/DSPL Downwind50.88
Scoring OptionTODTOT
5-Band Windward/Leeward Low1011.60.5931
5-Band Windward/Leeward Low/Med753.80.7960
5-Band Windward/Leeward Medium651.30.9212
5-Band Windward/Leeward Med/High592.41.0129
5-Band Windward/Leeward High557.71.0759
Windward/Leeward 60-40 Low1000.30.5998
Windward/Leeward 60-40 Low/Med754.40.7953
Windward/Leeward 60-40 Medium660.80.9080
Windward/Leeward 60-40 Med/High609.20.9849
Windward/Leeward 60-40 High580.41.0337
5-Band AP Low752.60.7972
5-Band AP Low/Med605.30.9913
5-Band AP Medium537.61.1160
5-Band AP Med/High492.91.2173
5-Band AP High461.81.2991
5-Band SF Bay Tour - Low868.50.6908
5-Band SF Bay Tour - Low/Med719.50.8339
5-Band SF Bay Tour - Medium629.50.9532
5-Band SF Bay Tour - Med/High576.41.0409
5-Band SF Bay Tour - High542.31.1065
Chicago-Mac Upwind0.9717
Chicago-Mac All Purpose0.9856
Chicago-Mac Downwind0.9913
Bayview-Mac Cove Island0.7378
Bayview-Mac Shore0.7453
Harvest Moon Regatta473.41.2675
Club Certificate2025
PHOTOGENIKAESP-13111_C
RFEV
c/ Gamazo sn
39004 Santander – España
crucero@rfev.es
Data in meters/kilograms (Metric)
HULL AND APPENDAGES (Lightship Trim)
ClassILC 30Measurement17/07/2002HINPlan reviewHull constructionLightCarbon rudderNoLight stanchionsNoTrim tabNo
LOA9.590Max. Beam3.130Draft1.967Displacement2,326Wetted area15.82IMS L8.453LSM07.894Acc. length9.590Sink (kg/mm) 12.05
VCGD-0.276VCGM-0.249RM Rated (kg·m) 63.3Limit of positive stability(°) N/AStability IndexN/ADefault crew weight491Declared crew weight600
PROPELLER
Propeller TypeFolding 2 blades
InstallationStrutTwin screwNoHydro generatorNo
PRD0.385PBW0.100PIPA0.0030
EDL0.902ST10.041ST20.180
ST30.181ST40.112ST50.210
RIG
Forestay tensionAftInner stayNone FittedMast materialCarbonSingle headsail furlerNoMainsail furlerArticulated bowspritNoNon-circular riggingNoFiber riggingNoAdjustable mast footNoRunning backstays2Checkstays0Spreaders2Rotating mastNo
P12.460IG11.830ISP11.850MDT10.085MDL10.142MDT20.062MDL20.104TL2.060MW0.142GO0.142
E4.280J3.280BAS1.600FSD0.027SFJ0.170SPL3.360WPLTPSBD0.177MWT80.50MCG4.273
Flying Headsail Foretriangles IdISPTPS
FLOTATION AND STABILITY
Calculation methodRM entered directlyRM entered65.0Flotation Date25/03/2002
BALLAST
TANKS
INVENTORY
INVENTORY
Fixed Ballast Total0
Total deductible
Total deductible
Club Certificate2025
PHOTOGENIKAESP-13111_C
RFEV
c/ Gamazo sn
39004 Santander – España
crucero@rfev.es
MAINSAIL
IdMHBMUWMTWMHWMQWAreaMeas.DateCommentORC0.160.881.602.773.6431.87* Copied from legacy *
HEADSAIL
IdHHBHUWHTWHHWHQWHLPHLUBtnFlyingFTAreaMeas.DateCommentORC4.570.00NoNo 28.56* Copied from legacy *
SYMMETRIC SPINNAKER
IdSLUSLESLSHWSFLAreaMeas.DateCommentORC11.6811.6811.685.900.0057.71* Copied from legacy *